Why are you involved in this topic at work?

Nikita Baranov: I want anyone who works for us or with us not to have to ask themselves the energy-sapping questions “Should I come out?” and “How much should I reveal about myself?” – I want them to be able to be who they are, with their entire identity. To come to work without having to fear being harassed, bullied or discriminated against just because of who they are. Not only to be diverse and integrated, but also to have a feeling of belonging.

What responses do you get to this?

Nikita Baranov: I get positive responses to my involvement, but I also notice that the topic of LGBT+ is not always considered an integral part of Diversity & Inclusion by all employees. That’s why we need to continually raise people’s awareness because only a diverse workforce can meet our goal of producing creative and innovative solutions for our equally diverse customers.

What can we all achieve by getting involved in LGBT*IQ networks?

Nikita Baranov: I’m convinced that only by joining forces will we manage to eliminate discrimination at work in order to promote equal rights. Networks help us increase visibility, and company-wide projects have a bigger reach and significance. One thing is certain: we’re all fighting for a common cause, and alliances can only be beneficial.

Since July, you have been Executive Assistant to the Chief Human Resources Officer at METRO AG – will this enable you to make LGBT*IQ topics even more visible?

Nikita Baranov: Above all, I firmly believe that, regardless of role or position, everyone has a voice and a platform that they should use to promote LGBT+ topics. As LGBT+ diversity is a key part of our corporate culture, I’m happy to be able to make the topic even more visible.

You’re often seen with a rainbow – what does it mean to you to be out and visible?

Nikita Baranov: I want to maintain a daily dialogue about LGBT+ because unconscious bias is something that affects everyone. The more visibility I can give the subject, the more we will become aware of our unconscious thoughts. Being out at work and not having to hide my identity is a prerequisite for showing myself as a whole person and performing at my best.

Nico Hofmann, many congratulations on being ranked no. 1 in GERMANY’S TOP 100 OUT EXECUTIVES list. You were already on the list last year – what responses did you receive as a result of that?

Nico Hofmann: Thanks! I’m delighted, although I see the list of Out Executives as more of a platform for dialogue than just a ranking. After I was ranked 12th last year, I was able to create lots of contacts with other colleagues from the list. That’s very valuable. It’s important to make diversity visible and the Out Executives list is a very interesting way of doing that.

Being out at work – what does that mean in a leadership position?

Nico Hofmann: Managers shape a company’s culture, so the significance shouldn’t be underestimated. However, the need for diversity and the energy come primarily also from the employees themselves. The younger generation in particular are making very strong calls for this – something we have a keen sense of at UFA. The company has changed in the past five years, becoming much more female and much younger. And the more openly we practice diversity, the more open our dealings with each other become. Today we discuss things differently and cast roles differently as well. UFA’s parent group Bertelsmann has the be.queer network, which we became part of by creating be.queer@UFA. Here, too, a lot of the initiative stemmed from our employees.

Nevertheless, the German film industry in particular could still do a lot more about diversity. How do you see your own role here?

Nico Hofmann: I very clearly have a political agenda. I appear in the media and talk about the subject. Germany is about five years behind the USA in this area, but things are moving. Together with the media industry magazine DWDL.de, we had planned to hold a diversity summit for the film industry in Cologne this year. Unfortunately, it had to be cancelled due to the coronavirus pandemic. But the summit will take place next year because the demand for it was very strong. The major channels had confirmed their attendance, the tickets were quickly sold out and big names were set to appear on the panels – that tells me how topical the subject is for the film industry.

LGBT*IQ people still barely feature in German film and television productions, and when they do, they often have very clichéd roles. What is being done to change this?

Nico Hofmann: Diversity has long been visible in our daily dramas such as “GZSZ” (“Good Times, Bad Times”), and we have currently begun filming our queer series “All You Need” for the public channel ARD – this wouldn’t have happened a few years ago. If we show LGBT*IQ people as a perfectly normal part of films and series without turning them into victims or resorting to clichés, my hope is that, in society as a whole, they can develop their own self-identity because this has become an entirely natural thing to do.

What’s more, today we have a different generation of creatives. I teach at the Film Academy in Ludwigsburg and some of my best students there are from minority ethnic groups and approach topics in a completely different way. I’ve also had the opportunity to support the development of several transgender students at the Film Academy and I’m seeing a generation come through that has a very strong need for diversity.

Mr. Stumpp, as CEO, you are a bridge between your company’s goals and your employees. What experiences regarding equal opportunities for LGBT*IQ people have you had to date in your role?

Stefan Stumpp: We are a market/social research company as well as a marketing consultancy and our mission is “Understand People – Inspire Growth”. This goal is a very fitting aspiration for our customers: we help them understand how their own customers, employees and stakeholders “tick”. To be able to achieve this effectively, however, we must understand people’s diversity and life plans and integrate them adequately into our studies and recommendations for companies. Therefore, our motto fits perfectly with the goals we have set for our staff development. Over and above our commitment to LGBT* topics, this gives us a greater understanding of how to integrate all types of diversity. This has made us better advisors for our customers.

Diversity has long been a topic in large companies. How are your staff responding to the fact that the focus is now being placed on LGBT*IQ?

Stefan Stumpp: We, too, have been aiming to increase the diversity of our team for many years. We take a holistic approach to the topic because equal opportunities are not just a question of gender, sexual orientation or background. As a knowledge-based company, it’s important to us that our employees can put their whole personalities into their work – this helps us leverage their full creative potential. Our colleagues at all our offices are responding very positively and with interest to the activities of our employee resource group “Pride@Kantar”. The group is open to all colleagues – whether they define themselves as LGBT* or not – and is active at our offices in Germany and worldwide. It is supported by our Inclusion & Diversity Committee and our staff development team. The group explains why it’s relevant to talk about LGBT* topics in the world of work, calls for debate – also about our policies and corporate stances – and, conversely, makes Kantar visible in the LGBT* world. It’s great to see that our employee groups on gender and LGBT* topics have sparked a new dialogue beyond specialist teams.

Kantar has been a PROUT EMPLOYER since 2019. What prompted you to focus on LGBT*IQ diversity yourselves?

Stefan Stumpp: To begin with, our diversity initiatives focused on balancing work and family life and therefore on equal opportunities between the sexes. We began a dialogue with all our employees on this subject and attempted to identify unconscious patterns of thinking. However, we quickly realised that diversity encompasses many more aspects. This prompted us to also start addressing quite specifically sexual orientation and gender identity as another key topic.

What do you think are the challenges and the opportunities with regard to LGBT*IQ diversity in your company in the coming years?

Stefan Stumpp: Within the company, we have created tremendous enthusiasm and optimism around the topic of diversity – and not just in Germany: after all, we are a global group with 30,000 employees. We have only just started to interconnect our employee resource groups and we had big plans for 2020 – especially for our work with the CSDs in Germany. The Covid crisis and its economic effects led not only to the cancellation of the CSDs. Many companies are first of all having to deal with the direct economic consequences of Covid-19. The challenge is definitely to prevent people’s attention from being diverted from staff development topics. A lot of commitment comes directly from our teams and we must ensure that we can maintain this motivation even in these unusual times. Precisely in such crises, diversity gives us an advantage because looking at these situations from more angles will allow us to deal with them much more creatively. Kantar understands people – how they think, feel, assess, consume or choose – like almost no other company.

How would you use your knowledge to make other companies understand the added value and your commitment to LGBT*IQ diversity?

Stefan Stumpp: Many of our customers – a large number of which are powerful brands – are faced with the question of how they can incorporate diversity into their advertising and communication and how they can become more inclusive. Some companies stick rainbow flags to the front doors of their branches/stores; others use CSDs for sponsoring or recruiting purposes: for many brands, the question of their stance – how they position themselves on issues of equality in society – has become an important subject. This includes how they deal with LGBT* topics. That’s why the inclusion of LGBT* topics in media, communication and customer touchpoints is also an area that we research and advise on, and in which we are learning not only ourselves how to improve, but can also help our customers do the same.

Mr. Stumpp, we at PROUT AT WORK are delighted to have Kantar on board. Thank you very much for talking to us!

Maren, this is your third year in a row as a trainer at PROUT AT WORK’s “Should I or shouldn’t I” coming out seminar. What is your connection with LGBTIQ and coming out?

Maren Borggräfe: When I was 19, just after I moved from a small town in southern Germany to Berlin to study, I realised I can also fall in love with women – head over heels in love! As I come from a very religious home, this was utterly inconceivable to me up to that point. I viewed homosexuals as sinners who had to strive to get back on the right path. So this was quite a shock – not just for me but especially for my parents! My mother sensed very quickly that something wasn’t quite right, so I felt there was no other way than to come out to my parents relatively fast. After that, fate took its course. My parents disapproved of my “unnatural” tendencies that don’t represent God’s will and they still cannot fully accept my way of life. And that’s despite the fact that, after some twists and turns, I have been with my wife for 14 years and we have two wonderful boys. From personal experience, I know the inner and outer distress that coming out can cause. But I also experienced how taking a close look at yourself helps you mature. It gives me great strength when I fully accept and openly live this part of my personality.

What experiences did you have when you came out?

Maren Borggräfe: Coming out to my family was a rocky road that began with my parents prohibiting me from talking to other people about it – even my own (younger) brothers, which was followed by times when I was completely estranged from my parents, and ended up with me realising to my surprise that support can come from unexpected places. For example, my grandparents and my aunts on my mother’s side were very supportive right from the start, and my grandma on my father’s side reacted surprisingly calmly. Other family members – like my mother – would not come to my wedding. That hurt very much at the time. What helped me was to actively embark on a journey of acceptance with the support of a professional coach – acceptance of myself as well as the people who had, and still have, difficulties accepting me as I am. It was very important for me to realise that everyone is doing their best and that I can’t bring about, let alone force, a change in other people’s attitudes. This brought me inner peace. I was able to reconcile with the rebel in me and thus prepare to get closer to people again, especially my mother.

With very few exceptions, my experiences of coming out to my friends and colleagues were very positive. The more open I am about my way of life, the more open the reactions are too. At work, I took a completely different approach to coming out. As I met my wife there while both of us were still in our probationary periods, we were very careful at first – until someone who we hadn’t actually told asked us whether we were still together. Rumours were going round that we had split up. After that, we no longer thought it necessary to beat about the bush. In fact, hardly anyone was surprised. No wonder! We were so much in love and it’s hard to keep that hidden. When I was introduced as a new joiner at a subsequent employer, I came out in front of everyone by saying that I was politically active in the LGBTI movement as a hobby. Here, too, the reactions were mostly approving and confirmative, although I could sense that I was perceived as being “different” somehow. Since becoming self-employed, I decide based on the situation whether or not to tell project partners and clients about my family. Just like any other heterosexual person relies more or less on gut feeling when choosing to reveal personal information or not.

Why do you think it’s important to come out in the workplace?

Maren Borggräfe: I’m convinced that people are at their most creative, innovative and effective when they feel comfortable in their working environment, trust their colleagues and supervisors and are allowed to show the entirety of their personality. If I’m using up part of my energy hiding some of my personality, it’s like I’m driving with the handbrake on. This is very difficult and draining. Strength that I need to put into my work is going to waste. I’m in a state of permanent inner conflict with myself, which makes it difficult to show people the real me. As humans, we have a very keen sense of when the person in front of us is not behaving coherently. This can be a problem for managers in particular. Apart from the fact that having a secret makes us susceptible to blackmail, we’re constantly walking a tightrope when we present ourselves – as is often necessary in the modern working world. The resulting stress can even make you ill and cause psychosomatic symptoms.

On the other hand, by being open about my identity, I can be a tremendous asset to an organisation and add to its diversity, which – as proved by many studies – is a prerequisite for high-performing teams. I can help shape the culture and pave the way for others to follow my example.

What would be your advice to LGBT*IQ employees who are afraid that their colleagues will disapprove of them coming out in the workplace?

Maren Borggräfe: As subjective as they may be, these fears are certainly legitimate. Everyone must decide for themselves whether, and if so, when and how they come out. That’s a very important thing for me to say, especially if you have a situation where a company’s diversity management policy portrays coming out as being desirable. The decision to take this step is very personal and may have far-reaching consequences.

I recommend having the courage to seek support. This might be a friend who we trust, a contact person within the company, for example from the LGBTI network if there is one, or a professional coach. PROUT AT WORK regularly holds a seminar entitled “Should I or shouldn’t I? Coming out in the workplace”. Facilitated by experienced trainers, LGBs can share their stories in a protected space, reflect on their experiences of coming out so far, try out new approaches and give each other encouragement in the lead-up to coming out at work. In addition, more and more coaches offer support for the process of coming out. Like me, they frequently come from the LGBTI Community themselves and know from experience what the particular challenges are. There are online pools of LGBTI-friendly coaches that allow people expressing an interest to find a suitable person in their region.

Many people who are about to decide whether to come out in the workplace find it helpful to look at what they have previously experienced when coming out in different situations.. What did I experience? How did I feel? How did others typically react and how did I feel about that? What helped me? What strategies and behaviours helped me cope with difficult situations? Which of them might be useful to me in the current situation? Which ones would I prefer not to use this time and what would I like to do differently?

Employees should also keep themselves well informed, observe their environment and assess the situation realistically: how open is the corporate culture? How are non-business issues generally dealt with? Who is openly LGBTI in the company? What are the risks of coming out? Am I prepared to take them? How important is it to me to come out? What are the benefits? Am I prepared to change my employer if it doesn’t work out?

I would generally like to encourage anyone out there who is still hesitant (and there are many more of them than we think!). Be bold and show yourself. If you are centred and are true to yourself, unexpected paths open up. What you put out there will come back to you!

Ms Bosch, why are you and your organisation Dreilinden advocating for LGBT*IQ people worldwide?

Ise Bosch: The question really should be: Why aren’t more people and institutions advocating for them? LGBTIQ people are among the most at-risk social groups by any measure. Trans women are almost fifty times more likely to be HIV positive than the population average, for example, and hardly anyone makes more suicide attempts than young LGBTQ people. Yet Dreilinden is one of only two foundations in Germany specialising in this field and supporting it internationally. German funding for this cause worldwide – including public subsidies – amounted to a modest 3.1 Mio. Euros in 2016. This includes 684.000 Euros from Dreilinden, which is more than the Ministry for Development is dedicating to the issue.

One of the issues we will discuss at our 2018 PROUT AT WORKconference is the situation of LGBT*IQ people in Russia as well as in Africa and the Arab world. Where do you see differences in working towards equality within the various global regions? Where do you see commonalities?

Ise Bosch: Any answer to this will have to be very general, and there will always be counter examples. But we generally find that cultures with a strong religious influence tend to reject gender diversity – not just Islam, but Catholic and evangelical Christian religions as well. So-called persecutor states with severe legal discrimination up to and including the death penalty for sexual acts between men can mostly be found in formerly colonised countries. The roots of persecution stem from colonial times – their moral laws are often still those of the colonial powers! They are an enormously powerful legacy of missionary work – by us Europeans. Structural social discrimination makes life for queer people just as dangerous as legal discrimination – in particular if a culture is strongly patriarchal, like many societies in the former Eastern Bloc, notably in Russia, Ukraine and the Central Asian republics. And where a society closes itself off and becomes more nationalistic and militaristic, gender binarity is enforced, and that invariably happens at the expense of sexually and gender-diverse people.

In your view, is there a corporate responsibility for LGBT*IQ people worldwide?

Ise Bosch: Of course! For one thing, it is simply part of their responsibility for their employees – whether these belong to the “community” themselves, or their friends or relatives do, or they simply want the freedom to grow as individuals. Companies obviously have an interest in their employees’ wellbeing, not just because productivity will suffer otherwise but simply because of their responsibility as employers. And that means they also have an interest in more liberal laws. The fact that some employees cannot be posted to Singapore because of its discriminating laws is unacceptable. But as long as these laws and social taboos exist, these employees need points of contacts within their companies who can advise them confidentially. To do this, companies must make their support for diversity and their efforts to gain the required expertise very clear. After all, it’s not just about the small number of gay and lesbian people or the even smaller number of trans and inter people, it’s about development opportunities for everyone. Sociology now knows that significantly more people change their sexual orientation during their lifetime than previously assumed.

In a 2016 study, the Center for Talent Innovation stated that companies should not underestimate the influence of their economic power in the struggle for legal equal opportunities for LGBT*IQ people. Where do you see concrete scope for action for globally operating companies?

Ise Bosch: In at least two respects: First of all, they can offer non-discriminatory jobs, and, in case of a conflict, protection. Secondly, they have very special access to local administrations, governments etc. Not just for formal interventions – via their connections as well. Powerful “expatriates” in particular meet people with all kinds of influence and can, or could, provide assistance like almost nobody else. Not just in emergency situations, obviously, but with regards to broadening horizons as well, through their more liberal attitude. Homophobia and transphobia have a strong component of plain ignorance – people aren’t familiar with the issue, they have questions, but they don’t ask them openly because they feel insecure and are afraid of some kind of “contagion”. We have to create situations that allow legitimate questions to be asked, and we need to answer them. Naturally, a face-to-face conversation and a confidential setting are the best way to do this. People with a certain standing are also in a position to change biographies for the better, even if they aren’t part of the “community”.

We live in ambivalent times. In the fourth edition of your Rainbow Philanthropy, you described both a growing understanding that discrimination against LGBT*IQ people is unjust and the fact that their situation is becoming no less, if not more, precarious. What can each of us do individually to make the world a better place for LGBT*IQ people?

Ise Bosch: Dismantle what’s left of our own prejudices! Dare to ask our own critical questions: At what point do I get embarrassed, where do my fears lie? And then speak out publicly regardless. And build real friendships. Personal friendships are an irreplaceable asset in being able to stand up for people who are different with regards to gender or sexuality. And much of it is transferrable, it applies to China just as much as it does to Chemnitz.

What do you think the future holds for the equality of LGBT*IQ human rights?

Ise Bosch: As far as this issue is concerned, globalisation is particularly powerful, and certainly irreversible. People have always expressed themselves diversely with regards to gender – but now it gets captured everywhere across our media and thus becomes visible. I expect a back and forth battle for many, many years to come, between those who feel threatened and fight this diversity, and young people who simply are who they are. However, their tools have become more powerful. I believe that in the not too distant future, “community” and help will be accessible for all gender-diverse people in some way. Even if our democratic systems are currently becoming increasingly precarious – this medial, lived diversity won’t go away. For individuals, this will be a massive step forward compared to now where most young gender-diverse people still believe they are the only ones with this “defect”.