What objectives is BASF pursuing with the PROUT EMPLOYER cooperation?

Michael Heinz: With this cooperation, we are signalling that BASF maintains and promotes an open, tolerant and inclusive working environment – both internally and externally. We are a founding member of the PROUT AT WORK-Foundation and continue to champion the interests of LGBT*IQ people, because we want all our employees to feel comfortable here and not to have to hide their true selves, let alone be disadvantaged because of their sexual orientation or identity.

What activities are there at BASF in terms of LGBT*IQ diversity?

Michael Heinz: To name one example, since 2012, we have supported the employee network LGBT+Friends at our Ludwigshafen location. This network deals with topics and concerns of homosexual, bisexual and transgender employees and sees itself as a forum for networking and sharing experiences. It is open to all interested staff. We also show our support for IDAHOT and other LGBT*IQ relevant occasions by carrying out internal and external communication activities.

Why is it important for you personally to support LGBT*IQ people?

Michael Heinz: I have seen in my social environment what it means for LGBTIQ people to not be accepted in society and therefore to not be able to be open about their sexual orientation. That’s why I champion open and respectful interaction in our company – which means that everyone is seen and accepted as a unique individual here.

Mr Heinz, many thanks for talking to us!

Mr Metzger, as head of HR, one of your duties is to act as a bridge between job applicants, employees and management. What experiences regarding equal opportunities for LGBT*IQ people have you had to date in your role?

Matthias Metzger: In recent years, our commitment to a diverse workforce has increased considerably, including with regard to LGBT*IQ people. For example, we have introduced a standardised testing procedure worldwide for our recruitment of salaried employees. This means that, even before the other documents are reviewed, an initial preselection takes place in which prejudices cannot influence our decisions. We want the best fit! In addition, we have held diversity workshops to raise awareness among all our managers worldwide and ask our staff for feedback on the issue of equal opportunities in our annual employee survey.

Having started its cooperation with us in 2019, Continental is one of the newer PROUT EMPLOYERS. What activities have there been to date in your company in relation to LGBT*IQ people in the workplace?

Matthias Metzger: The topic itself is not new to our company. However, in 2018, we decided to highlight it in a more proactive way. The first step was to hold regular meet-ups at our major locations in Regensburg and Hanover as well as regular participation in Sticks and Stones. For 2019, we are planning further activities, including a dialogue format with our HR board member Ariane Reinhart, Albert Kehrer and a number of LGBT*IQ colleagues, who will report on their experiences in the company.

What prompted you to become a PROUT EMPLOYER and what do you hope to gain from our joint cooperation?

Matthias Metzger: We want to send a clearly visible signal internally and externally that the topic of equal opportunities is dear to us. PROUT AT WORK provides a great framework for this because it increases visibility on the one hand while, on the other hand, offering different dialogue formats that allow us to learn from other companies.

You immediately agreed to an interview with us – thank you again! To what extent are equal opportunities for LGBT*IQ people a matter close to your heart?

Matthias Metzger: If, as a company, we can successfully address equal opportunities for LGBT*IQ people, which is a sensitive topic for many, we will have taken a major step towards real diversity in practice. This liberal spirit will then translate into acceptance of other lifestyles and working models, thus benefitting everyone. And it helps us to make taboo issues that are more pronounced in some countries easier to get to grips with. I firmly believe that every employee has the right to be successful – in their own unique way. And this requires a corporate culture that promotes and values diversity.

At Continental, you’ve really turned the application procedure on its head. One of the reasons you rely on diagnostics instead of CVs is that you want to promote fairness and diversity. To what extent do you think LGBTIQ applicants in particular could benefit from this?

Matthias Metzger: The replacement of our old application procedure is an initiative that many people worked on – and that also met with resistance and doubts to begin with. It has been scientifically proven than school and university grades are not a predictor of professional success, yet many human resources managers cling to them because they apparently make comparisons so easy. At Continental, we want to give all applicants a chance and ensure the best fit between the candidate and the job in each case. This can only be achieved through objective testing methods.

Mr Metzger, many thanks for talking to us!

Ms Tomše, diversity has long been a topic at large companies. What is the employees’ response to AXA focusing on LGBTIQ diversity?

Jana Tomše: At AXA, we place a strong emphasis on tolerance and consider diversity as an enriching and creative resource. Alongside the issues of gender diversity and multi-generations, LGBTIQ diversity has been an important focus of ours for a number of years. Our employees are very familiar with this topic. In addition to our internal activities throughout the year, we have taken part in Cologne’s Christopher Street Day Parade with our own float since 2014. More than 300 AXA employees are involved in this every year.

What activities are there at AXA with regard to LGBTIQ diversity?

Jana Tomše: It’s important to us that all employees feel comfortable at AXA, irrespective of their sexual orientation. We therefore work constantly on increasing awareness of these issues at our company, with the help and advice of Jörg Schmidt, head of HR management and LBTIQ person of trust. What’s more, the so-called rainbow network has established itself at AXA. In cooperation with the network’s chair team, regular meet-ups, appearances at diversity fairs and, of course, our participation in the CSD are organised.

You have been in diversity management since 2018. How did you come to work in this area? And why is it a matter close to your heart to champion LGBTIQ issues?

Jana Tomše: My first deliberate encounter with the topic of diversity was a university project on awareness. From that point, I focused my studies as far as possible on prejudice and gender research. Last year, I met Christian Riekel, AXA’s Chief Diversity Officer, at the CSD and he asked me whether I could imagine joining the diversity team. I immediately said yes. Both in my private and in my professional life, I had observed several times how restricting it is if someone can’t completely stand by their sexual orientation. So much quality of life and development potential are lost. That’s why this topic is close to my heart.

What do you think are the challenges and the opportunities with regard to LGBTIQ diversity in your company in the coming years?

Jana Tomše: Although I’m convinced that we have a culture of openness and tolerance at AXA, it still takes a lot of courage to stand by your sexual orientation and identity. This will remain a challenge until sexual orientation is no longer important in society.

With these challenges and opportunities in mind, in what areas are you hoping for support and input from PROUT AT WORK and in what form?

Jana Tomše: At AXA, we are permanently working to create an atmosphere of openness for diverse personalities. PROUT AT WORK is an important partner for us with regard to our focus on LGBTIQ issues. You provide us with a platform for dialogue, inspiration and assistance. At the same time, we would like to join together to send a clear signal against discrimination to the outside world.

Ms Tomše, many thanks for talking to us!

Mr Seiler, in January 2018 you took up your new role, Deutsche Bahn AG’s management board member responsible for HR. A strong focus of your current activities is on recruiting. To what extent do you think LGBT*IQ talent in particular could benefit from this?

Martin Seiler: It’s true that our recruitment is currently at a record level: in the past year alone, we welcomed more than 24,000 employees to the group. These are new colleagues who add to the great diversity of our workforce in all respects: age, ethnic origin, religion, gender as well as sexual orientation. We value this diversity and believe that it enriches our company. Our current employer campaign is called “Welcome, you fit in well” and represents exactly this openness. All motivated applicants are very welcome, irrespective of their sexual orientation, gender identity and ethnic origin.

What activities has Deutsche Bahn offered so far relating to LGBT*IQ in the workplace?

Martin Seiler: There a lots of examples. For instance, we were a pioneer in recognising registered partnerships: all arrangements regarding benefits for spouses of our employees (e.g. travel benefits, exemption arrangements and allowances) have also been applied to registered partners. We concluded an anti-discrimination agreement with the works council that covers both everyday cooperation and career opportunities. Our aim is to have a corporate culture in which homophobia and transphobia do not exist. That’s why I am very proud that DB employees are among Germany’s Top 100 Out Executives. We support our internal LGBT employee network “railbow” and are also active outside the company: we’ve taken part in the CSD parades for years and last year we decorated Berlin main station for the first time with flags during Pride Week.

Deutsche Bahn is part of the PROUT EMPLOYER cooperation. In your view, what are the objectives pursued by Deutsche Bahn with this cooperation?

Martin Seiler: Being a member of PROUT AT WORK enables us to provide specific and practical support to our employees if they decide to come out at work or with networking. We want to put them at ease, give them the chance to talk to each other and encourage them to tell us when something isn’t working so well. The numerous events and publications of PROUT AT WORK also enable us to expand our expertise relating to LGBTIQ issues in the workplace and spread new impetus within DB.

Your strong focus on HR and recruitment indicates that your colleagues have a special importance to you. To what extent are equal opportunities for LGBT*IQ people also a matter close to your heart?

Martin Seiler: As a group comprising 200,000 employees in Germany alone, we have been championing equal opportunities, appreciation and respect for many years, and as the member of the management board for human resources and legal affairs, I am constantly impressed by the diversity of our workforce. I am convinced that we need the potential of this diversity more than ever to develop the innovative strength that is required today and to perform better as a company. Last but not least, our customers benefit from an open, appreciative culture in which employees do not hide their sexual orientation and feel comfortable in their workplace.

Mr Seiler, many thanks for talking to us!

What prompted you to become a PROUT EMPLOYER?

Stefan Falk: Our VINCI Group pursues a determined policy of equality that takes action against any form of discrimination in employment and occupation. Diversity is valued and promoted at VINCI. As the Group’s German division, we also want to take a stand and to position ourselves clearly against discrimination.

Can you tell us about an initiative regarding equal opportunities in the workplace for LGBTIQ people that has already been successful in your company?

Stefan Falk: Specifically, we supported a person on their journey to coming out. We would like to offer all employees equal opportunities and give them the chance to come out and be able to communicate openly.

How are you hoping to get specific support from PROUT AT WORK?

Stefan Falk: We would like to use the network to share experiences with other companies and to be able to continue to make progress ourselves.

What objectives are you pursuing with the PROUT EMPLOYER cooperation?

Stefan Falk: We want to demonstrate that this issue is important to us. Equal opportunities is not just a slogan, but something we commit to every day.

What activities are there at VINCI Energies Deutschland with regard to LGBT*IQ diversity?

Stefan Falk: As demonstrated by the VINCI Ethics Charter and many other measures, the subject of diversity is now an integral component of our manager training programmes. In France, VINCI has a network of more than 200 diversity officers whose main duty is to sharpen awareness and to hold diversity training in the individual divisions and companies of the group. We now want to promote and support this topic in Germany.

Why is it a matter close to your heart to support LGBT*IQ?

Stefan Falk: Because I have experienced in my private and professional life that people find it hard to talk about being different and are reserved in their working environment. Employees who are happy and feel comfortable are able to work more successfully.

Mr Falk, many thanks for talking to us!

Mr Donks, Discovery Network in Germany has been part of the PROUT EMPLOYER cooperation since 2014 and therefore almost as long as our foundation PROUT AT WORK has existed. What prompted you to become a PROUT EMPLOYER so early on?

Even before PROUT AT WORK was founded, we were actively represented in LGBT associations by our companies in other countries. So we were all the more delighted when in 2014 PROUT AT WORK was launched in Germany. Diversity and equality have always been among our core values and integral parts of our corporate philosophy. We are firmly convinced that only an open and inclusive working environment allows employees to develop both their creativity and their productivity to the full.

What activities are there at Discovery in terms of LGBT*IQ diversity?

Our priDe group offers a broad range of activities. They include the annual priDe parades, a self-organised panel discussion, voluntary work at an Aids charity as part of our Impact Day and an employee breakfast where we present the topics that we are focusing on. In addition, there are numerous activities in smaller groups aimed at further improving working conditions for LGBTI.

Alongside your main job, you are co-chair of Discovery priDe’s LGBT*IQ network. Why is it a matter close to your heart to support LGBT*IQ?

I’m involved with priDe Germany first and foremost to improve the working environment especially for LGBTI. On top of that, in my function as a role model, I’d like to motivate other colleagues to be open about this topic at work because a particularly large number of young people no longer openly live their sexual orientation once they start their working lives.

Where do you see challenges and opportunities for LGBT*IQ diversity in your company in the coming years?

I see great opportunities especially as our work enables us to present Discovery as a progressive and innovative employer in the difficult market for skilled professionals and thus to increase our attractiveness in particular among young people.

Mr Donks, many thanks for talking to us!

Maren, this is your third year in a row as a trainer at PROUT AT WORK’s “Should I or shouldn’t I” coming out seminar. What is your connection with LGBTIQ and coming out?

Maren Borggräfe: When I was 19, just after I moved from a small town in southern Germany to Berlin to study, I realised I can also fall in love with women – head over heels in love! As I come from a very religious home, this was utterly inconceivable to me up to that point. I viewed homosexuals as sinners who had to strive to get back on the right path. So this was quite a shock – not just for me but especially for my parents! My mother sensed very quickly that something wasn’t quite right, so I felt there was no other way than to come out to my parents relatively fast. After that, fate took its course. My parents disapproved of my “unnatural” tendencies that don’t represent God’s will and they still cannot fully accept my way of life. And that’s despite the fact that, after some twists and turns, I have been with my wife for 14 years and we have two wonderful boys. From personal experience, I know the inner and outer distress that coming out can cause. But I also experienced how taking a close look at yourself helps you mature. It gives me great strength when I fully accept and openly live this part of my personality.

What experiences did you have when you came out?

Maren Borggräfe: Coming out to my family was a rocky road that began with my parents prohibiting me from talking to other people about it – even my own (younger) brothers, which was followed by times when I was completely estranged from my parents, and ended up with me realising to my surprise that support can come from unexpected places. For example, my grandparents and my aunts on my mother’s side were very supportive right from the start, and my grandma on my father’s side reacted surprisingly calmly. Other family members – like my mother – would not come to my wedding. That hurt very much at the time. What helped me was to actively embark on a journey of acceptance with the support of a professional coach – acceptance of myself as well as the people who had, and still have, difficulties accepting me as I am. It was very important for me to realise that everyone is doing their best and that I can’t bring about, let alone force, a change in other people’s attitudes. This brought me inner peace. I was able to reconcile with the rebel in me and thus prepare to get closer to people again, especially my mother.

With very few exceptions, my experiences of coming out to my friends and colleagues were very positive. The more open I am about my way of life, the more open the reactions are too. At work, I took a completely different approach to coming out. As I met my wife there while both of us were still in our probationary periods, we were very careful at first – until someone who we hadn’t actually told asked us whether we were still together. Rumours were going round that we had split up. After that, we no longer thought it necessary to beat about the bush. In fact, hardly anyone was surprised. No wonder! We were so much in love and it’s hard to keep that hidden. When I was introduced as a new joiner at a subsequent employer, I came out in front of everyone by saying that I was politically active in the LGBTI movement as a hobby. Here, too, the reactions were mostly approving and confirmative, although I could sense that I was perceived as being “different” somehow. Since becoming self-employed, I decide based on the situation whether or not to tell project partners and clients about my family. Just like any other heterosexual person relies more or less on gut feeling when choosing to reveal personal information or not.

Why do you think it’s important to come out in the workplace?

Maren Borggräfe: I’m convinced that people are at their most creative, innovative and effective when they feel comfortable in their working environment, trust their colleagues and supervisors and are allowed to show the entirety of their personality. If I’m using up part of my energy hiding some of my personality, it’s like I’m driving with the handbrake on. This is very difficult and draining. Strength that I need to put into my work is going to waste. I’m in a state of permanent inner conflict with myself, which makes it difficult to show people the real me. As humans, we have a very keen sense of when the person in front of us is not behaving coherently. This can be a problem for managers in particular. Apart from the fact that having a secret makes us susceptible to blackmail, we’re constantly walking a tightrope when we present ourselves – as is often necessary in the modern working world. The resulting stress can even make you ill and cause psychosomatic symptoms.

On the other hand, by being open about my identity, I can be a tremendous asset to an organisation and add to its diversity, which – as proved by many studies – is a prerequisite for high-performing teams. I can help shape the culture and pave the way for others to follow my example.

What would be your advice to LGBT*IQ employees who are afraid that their colleagues will disapprove of them coming out in the workplace?

Maren Borggräfe: As subjective as they may be, these fears are certainly legitimate. Everyone must decide for themselves whether, and if so, when and how they come out. That’s a very important thing for me to say, especially if you have a situation where a company’s diversity management policy portrays coming out as being desirable. The decision to take this step is very personal and may have far-reaching consequences.

I recommend having the courage to seek support. This might be a friend who we trust, a contact person within the company, for example from the LGBTI network if there is one, or a professional coach. PROUT AT WORK regularly holds a seminar entitled “Should I or shouldn’t I? Coming out in the workplace”. Facilitated by experienced trainers, LGBs can share their stories in a protected space, reflect on their experiences of coming out so far, try out new approaches and give each other encouragement in the lead-up to coming out at work. In addition, more and more coaches offer support for the process of coming out. Like me, they frequently come from the LGBTI Community themselves and know from experience what the particular challenges are. There are online pools of LGBTI-friendly coaches that allow people expressing an interest to find a suitable person in their region.

Many people who are about to decide whether to come out in the workplace find it helpful to look at what they have previously experienced when coming out in different situations.. What did I experience? How did I feel? How did others typically react and how did I feel about that? What helped me? What strategies and behaviours helped me cope with difficult situations? Which of them might be useful to me in the current situation? Which ones would I prefer not to use this time and what would I like to do differently?

Employees should also keep themselves well informed, observe their environment and assess the situation realistically: how open is the corporate culture? How are non-business issues generally dealt with? Who is openly LGBTI in the company? What are the risks of coming out? Am I prepared to take them? How important is it to me to come out? What are the benefits? Am I prepared to change my employer if it doesn’t work out?

I would generally like to encourage anyone out there who is still hesitant (and there are many more of them than we think!). Be bold and show yourself. If you are centred and are true to yourself, unexpected paths open up. What you put out there will come back to you!

Why are you so heavily involved in the LGBT*IQ Community?

Joschua Thuir: For several reasons, one of which is my personal history. When I was 19 and still in training, I realised that I could no longer identify with the female gender role assigned to me at birth. However, I didn’t come out as a trans man at work until I was 25, because I feared that it would cost me my career if I disclosed my true identity before becoming a state official with lifetime job security and privileges.

Being a trans person might be an obstacle to becoming a state official?

Joschua Thuir: Indirectly, yes. To join the police force, you have to meet certain health criteria that are laid down in the official police instructions PDV300. You’re checked to see whether you meet these criteria when you’re hired and when your probationary period ends. PDV300 distinguishes between men and women. When I was originally hired – as a woman – I met all the criteria for female officers, but later I didn’t meet the ones for male officers. For example, men must have at least one functioning testis, which is not possible for a trans man according to current medical technology.

So, coming out during my training and probationary period was not an option for me. The exclusion criteria forced me to lead a double life in order to continue my career: for five years, I was a heterosexual man in private, but I went to work as a homosexual woman.

Did hiding your true identity like this have an impact on your work?

Joschua Thuir: Absolutely. I constantly feared being revealed as someone who was living a lie. My efforts to pass for a woman also required an incredible amount of organisation, concentration and quick-wittedness. For instance, I had to react to female pronouns, although I didn’t feel that I was being addressed. In addition, there are some gender-specific duties at the police. Two concrete examples: I was regularly required to frisk women because of the relevant formal requirements which only permit frisking by people of the same gender (unless the situation is life-threatening). At passport control, I also frequently compared photographs of women not wearing a veil with women wearing a veil. This occasionally led to misunderstandings because of my rather masculine appearance.

In what other areas do you think your profession comes into contact with issues of gender identity or sexual orientation?

Joschua Thuir: As a police officer, I work with the law. However, our German Basic Law only recognises two genders and states that “Men and women shall have equal rights.” Police forms are thus based on a binary gender norm and are yet to include a third gender option. However, this is set to change by the end of the year, when a third gender is to be enshrined in the law.

A growing number of transgender or intersex people carry a supplemental ID. This ID card can be presented as an additional document in situations where someone is searched or asked for identification. It clarifies the legal situation and the identity of the person. It’s an aid to the police, so to speak. However, this ID card is not yet widely known.

Other points of contact can be found in asylum law. Persecution of homosexual and transgender people has now become a ground for asylum or refugee protection. Under the asylum procedure, these people must provide the Federal Office for Migration and Refugees – which processes and decides on their application – with proof not only of their persecution, but also of their sexual orientation or gender identity. In my day-to-day work, I’ve encountered people who have expressed their wish for asylum to me for these reasons.

What did you experience in your professional environment after coming out as a lesbian?

Joschua Thuir: Actually, I came out several times. When I was in training, I came out as supposedly lesbian and experienced some negative reactions from my fellow trainees. There were some verbal attacks like calling me “butch”, and non-verbal bullying like ridiculing my appearance in the communal showers. I also felt that my supervisors at the time had left me to deal with these day-to-day problems on my own. Once I was certain that I identify as a man, I didn’t open up to anyone in training any more. That’s a time I don’t want to remember. Unfortunately, I didn’t have the courage or strength to go to the next level of authority, nor did I have the relevant information, for example on VelsPol, the LGBT network in the German police, judiciary and customs authorities, to find a different way to ask for help.

And what did you experience when you came out as a trans man?

Joschua Thuir: When I came out as a trans man at the federal police force after those five years I mentioned before, the reactions were a lot more positive. But here, too, a few colleagues proved to be lacking social skills.

The next step must come from those higher up. Unfortunately, my attempts to make this point so far have been in vain. So I have to put up with colleagues who ignore me even if we are on patrol together and should have absolute trust in one another. I had to learn to deal with this.

After I came out, colleagues from the continuing education team were very interested in using my expertise. They asked me and another transgender colleague to prepare a talk for the aviation security training. To do so, I was even sent to Berlin for 2 days.

How did your supervisors react when you came out?

Joschua Thuir: The reactions of my supervisors at the time were very mixed, but by and large they ranged from positive to awkward. I asked a police trainer to disclose my identity to my direct supervisors and to ask them to forward this information to others in the command structures. I chose this approach to give everyone the opportunity to take a look at the German Transsexuals Act so that they could familiarise themselves with the topic before talking to me. Unfortunately, there was still confusion on all sides which couldn’t always be clarified or resolved.

As is so often the case, each individual has an important role to play in such situations. Committed supervisors will not tolerate discrimination. Others are less (pro)active or even shy away from conflict.

What would you like to see in future in terms of the visibility of LGBT*IQ issues in your workplace?

Joschua Thuir: I’d like to see LGBTIQ issues included in vocational training and continuing professional development because incorrect behaviour often stems from ignorance and unease. At the least, police officers should be made aware of exceptions so that when they’re dealing with people who are not heterosexual or cis-gender¹, i.e. 10% of the population, they can also fulfil their duties confidently and in a legally compliant manner.

Additionally, I’d like the federal police force – in accordance with its guiding principles – to take a stand as regards LGBTIQ employees, provide more education on this topic and have the Federal Ministry of the Interior revise PDV 300 such that trans and inter people can no longer be automatically disqualified from service in the police force. Lastly, I’d like LGBTIQ people not to feel alone either during training or later in their job and I’d like the fear of coming out in this organisation to become a thing of the past. To achieve these goals, the federal police force needs to increase the number of designated contact persons and broaden their target group by extending it from LG to LGBTIQ, as has already happened in some state police forces. The role of contact person shouldn’t just be something that is done on the side and doesn’t involve any obligations. It should be used proactively to increase awareness and counter discrimination both within and outside the organisation. Initial steps in the right direction have already been taken – I would be happy to continue this journey together, with the support of our organisation.

¹This term refers to people whose gender identity matches the sex assigned to them when they were born.

Jens, a few years ago, your book “The Rainbow Factor” received lots of acclaim from the media as well as from companies and universities. It seemed that many had previously been unaware of the business case. You are once again writing a book about LGBTI*IQ in the workplace. In your view, has anything changed?

Jens Schadendorf: Yes. Though I’d like to say this first: “The Rainbow Factor” is about Germany, with roughly two thirds about German businesses. My new book, for which I’m currently travelling in East Asia, South Africa, North America, Moscow, Rome, Paris and Amsterdam, will be published in German and English next year and exclusively focuses on “global business”. For German-speaking countries, it is indeed true: awareness for the LGBT*IQ business case has increased. However, distinctions should be made: companies have made considerable progress compared to four, five years ago, but they are still at very different levels. For example, just because you fly a rainbow flag above your headquarters for a week or two in June or allow your employees to join a CSD parade in a company t-shirt featuring a rainbow logo doesn’t necessarily mean you’ve understood the opportunities the LGBT*IQ business case offers. Still, both are a good start to improving or even just getting the ball rolling on visibility, awareness and appreciation for LGBT*IQ and the corresponding business case. In this process, globally operating German “corporates” are much more dynamic than they were half a decade ago, even if there are still deficits there. But as they say: Rome wasn’t built in a day either.

For the next step up in development, it would be important to have more actively engaged and out “role models” at the top as well, among other things. I know how it feels – I myself was located initially in the third, then in the second and finally in the first management level below senior management for many years. Out. German LGBT*IQ top dogs are more reluctant in this regard, at least compared to their English-speaking colleagues. I have every sympathy for legitimate career goals and different individual roads to happiness: but that annoys me. Those who – as top LGBT*IQ – have been blessed with many talents and opportunities must learn how to have an impact beyond power, status and money. Otherwise, they stand for the same “failure of the elites” we lament today – often unfairly. What sort of life is it when you know the price of everything and the value of nothing? Does that sound too “moralistic” or “heavy”? Nonsense. You can still celebrate work and life.

PROUT AT WORK is predominantly supported by companies. In 2017, you supported our foundation through a donation as well as through an endowment contribution – thank you so much for that! Why was this important to you? Why do you think it’s important that private individuals also support the goals of PROUT AT WORK financially?

Jens Schadendorf: As a down-to-earth Hamburg native and an economist who was “trained” abroad to be rational, I’m not prone to hyperbole. On the other hand, I’m happy to be inspired. And I think the idea the PROUT AT WORK Foundation stands for is fantastic. It is unparalleled in Germany. I also know that the road to becoming a foundation wasn’t an easy one, so I highly appreciate the fact that it was walked against all odds and the PROUT AT WORK Foundation could be founded in 2013. As a rule, I support any entrepreneurial behaviour that is willing to take risks in order to promote something “meaningful”. Even more so when – as is the case for foundations – it’s about improving “social conditions”. After all, that’s exactly what PROUT AT WORK wants, namely: “that all work environments are open to all people, regardless of their sexual orientation, gender identity, gender expression or sexual characteristics.” At least that’s what it says on the website, and it says something similar in the foundation’s rules.

I am, as I mentioned, gay myself. And I have been, and still am, quite successful professionally, both financially and otherwise, first as an employed book publisher and now as an independent global book expert and author. It may sound old-fashioned, but I don’t care: through my work as an author on LGBT+ business topics, I can give back to a society that has made many things possible for me. And I want to do the same – in a very different way – through my private commitment to the PROUT AT WORK Foundation. Everyone needs to make up their own minds how to live their lives and how to stand up for what’s important to them. But maybe my actions will encourage others to do the same.

What do you see as the role of organisations like PROUT AT WORK?

Jens Schadendorf: It is crucial. After all, activities around LGBT*IQ topics from companies or other institutions are one thing. The other thing, however, is exactly what PROUT AT WORK provides: public relations above the level of organisations, hosting events to dismantle homophobia and discrimination in the workplace, commissioning studies about discrimination and homophobia in everyday work life, publishing guides and informational materials for an appreciative, non-discriminatory work culture and cooperating with foreign associations and organisations that pursue similar goals.

No individual company is capable of getting all of these off the ground. PROUT AT WORK pools and processes current and relevant LGBT+IQ information, builds networks, provides advice, enables mutual learning – as a foundation and thus above and beyond all institutions. “For the greater good” if you will. And at the same time for the benefit of companies and organisations, executives and employees. After all – as studies show –, LGBT*IQ diversity management goes far beyond protecting so-called sexual minorities from discrimination. Above all, it focuses on the economic opportunities and potentials that are enhanced by this protection – for all involved. Underpinning and strengthening the awareness for these interdependencies: that’s what the activities of PROUT AT WORK are about, driven by its initiators and movers and shakers Albert Kehrer and Jean-Luc Vey.

Diversity has long been a topic at large law firms in English-speaking countries. How are your staff responding to the fact that the focus is now being placed on LGBTIQ?

Positively for the most part! Some colleagues question whether it’s actually still necessary to get involved in these issues. – If you’re a heterosexual man, it may be harder to see whether and in what form LGBTs are actually still battling against prejudice and perhaps discrimination or don’t dare to come out simply because they don’t know how their colleagues will react. To be honest, it has long been overdue that we offered a dedicated network for our German LGBT employees in addition to our successful “Ally” diversity programme and thus made another statement in support of openness and diversity. No one should feel that they have to hide their identity. And the advantage for our law firm is obvious: diverse teams are more multi-faceted, more creative and therefore more successful. Besides, in a presentation Jean-Luc recently gave to us, he quoted a study according to which the majority of LGBTs still hide their sexual orientation at work and about a quarter of their energy is wasted on building a construct for the outside world. This is alarming and at the same time encouraging. It’s encouraging because we can obviously further increase our productivity by creating an open environment. That’s a convincing argument even for people who are not affected.

What objectives are you pursuing with the PROUTEMPLOYER cooperation?

Although we have already set up an LGBT network, we see a lot of potential to expand our firm’s work to combat homophobia and transphobia and thus to further improve our corporate culture. We want to send a clear signal both internally and externally. We expect the PROUT EMPLOYER cooperation to give us new impetus and new ideas. As lawyers, we need our networks, and the cooperation creates another network and helps our LGBTs to be even more successful professionally. – And here again: it’s win-win!

What activities are there at Linklaters in terms of LGBTIQ diversity?

We have been championing diversity in our firm for many years. We’ve had established LGBT communities for a long time in London, New York, Tokyo and other locations of our law firm. In Germany, we also want to extend our network for our LGBT employees, which is still quite new there, and establish it as a platform on which colleagues can get updates on current topics, events, news, etc. or which they can simply use to share their experiences. This is particularly helpful for new colleagues who don’t yet know the environment. Interconnection within the Linklaters organisation is equally important. A good example is Hong Kong, where last year the commitment of our colleagues was awarded the Silver Standard of the LGBT+ Index by the Community Business organisation. This makes us the first and so far the only Magic Circle law firm to have been awarded the Silver Standard. That’s what I want to achieve in Germany, too.

You are the diversity sponsor at Linklaters. Why is it a matter close to your heart to support LGBTIQ people?

I have too many friends, even of my generation, who struggle with the issue of coming out and suffer from being different from what they pretend to be. In my view, the legal sector in particular still lags behind the rest of society here. However, each of us can fully develop our potential and talents only if we are accepted and valued by the people around us (both colleagues and clients). I try to play a small part in this through my contribution as diversity partner at Linklaters.

What do you think are the challenges with regard to LGBTIQ diversity in your firm in the coming years?

Our goal is to achieve a corporate culture in which sexual orientation is simply irrelevant because it doesn’t matter whether a colleague etc. is “straight” or LGBT. And “it doesn’t matter” doesn’t mean ignorance, but openness. In my view, the challenge here is to ensure that the discussion which we need for opening up these topics doesn’t cause a backlash from individuals.

Mr Daub, many thanks for your time.