Nico Hofmann, many congratulations on being ranked no. 1 in GERMANY’S TOP 100 OUT EXECUTIVES list. You were already on the list last year – what responses did you receive as a result of that?

Nico Hofmann: Thanks! I’m delighted, although I see the list of Out Executives as more of a platform for dialogue than just a ranking. After I was ranked 12th last year, I was able to create lots of contacts with other colleagues from the list. That’s very valuable. It’s important to make diversity visible and the Out Executives list is a very interesting way of doing that.

Being out at work – what does that mean in a leadership position?

Nico Hofmann: Managers shape a company’s culture, so the significance shouldn’t be underestimated. However, the need for diversity and the energy come primarily also from the employees themselves. The younger generation in particular are making very strong calls for this – something we have a keen sense of at UFA. The company has changed in the past five years, becoming much more female and much younger. And the more openly we practice diversity, the more open our dealings with each other become. Today we discuss things differently and cast roles differently as well. UFA’s parent group Bertelsmann has the be.queer network, which we became part of by creating be.queer@UFA. Here, too, a lot of the initiative stemmed from our employees.

Nevertheless, the German film industry in particular could still do a lot more about diversity. How do you see your own role here?

Nico Hofmann: I very clearly have a political agenda. I appear in the media and talk about the subject. Germany is about five years behind the USA in this area, but things are moving. Together with the media industry magazine DWDL.de, we had planned to hold a diversity summit for the film industry in Cologne this year. Unfortunately, it had to be cancelled due to the coronavirus pandemic. But the summit will take place next year because the demand for it was very strong. The major channels had confirmed their attendance, the tickets were quickly sold out and big names were set to appear on the panels – that tells me how topical the subject is for the film industry.

LGBT*IQ people still barely feature in German film and television productions, and when they do, they often have very clichéd roles. What is being done to change this?

Nico Hofmann: Diversity has long been visible in our daily dramas such as “GZSZ” (“Good Times, Bad Times”), and we have currently begun filming our queer series “All You Need” for the public channel ARD – this wouldn’t have happened a few years ago. If we show LGBT*IQ people as a perfectly normal part of films and series without turning them into victims or resorting to clichés, my hope is that, in society as a whole, they can develop their own self-identity because this has become an entirely natural thing to do.

What’s more, today we have a different generation of creatives. I teach at the Film Academy in Ludwigsburg and some of my best students there are from minority ethnic groups and approach topics in a completely different way. I’ve also had the opportunity to support the development of several transgender students at the Film Academy and I’m seeing a generation come through that has a very strong need for diversity.

In simple words, Campana & Schott is providing advice to their customers on strategies to keep their finger on the pulse. What role does diversity play here?

Dr. Christophe Campana: Events such as climate change, radicalization, populism, etc. have led to the point that more and more people are concerned with meanings and values. Most people have recognized that “healthy” progress and prosperity cannot be done without moral values and sustainability. Diversity is one of these values and therefore an essential part of this overarching development. Excluding people due to their sexual orientation promotes hatred and prevents a sustainable better future for everyone. There is still a lot to be done here.

Campana & Schott received three awards as a “Great Place to Work”. The list of your commitments towards the diversity of your employees is long and you are building on long-term cooperation instead of “hire and fire”. Has the PROUT EMPLOYER cooperation been the last piece of the puzzle for an open and inclusive work environment?

Dr. Christophe Campana: There will probably never be that one last piece of the puzzle. For us, the cooperation with PROUT EMPLOYER is an important part of our commitment, which we are constantly developing further. I keep learning new things, e.g. only recently the Federal President Steinmeier made a very clear point in the context of the anti-racism riots where he said: “It is not enough to not be a racist. We have to be anti-racists.” This view also applies to me with regard to diversity and our corporate culture. I am convinced that in the future there will always be topics that managers should deal with in the interests of their company: openness and tolerance are here to stay.

What advice would you give to companies that are just starting their commitment to LGBT*IQ diversity?

Dr. Christophe Campana: At Campana & Schott there have always been employees who have lived out their homosexuality openly. Therefore, homophobia had no place in our company. For a long time, I believed that this was enough. Only later, I understood that as an entrepreneur you have to take a visible and public position on this in order to reach out to the community and signal: Live your sexuality as you want: openly or not – both are fine. But if you want to live it openly, you will not suffer any disadvantage in our company. It’s just a small step, but it does a lot – and only good.

From our experience we know that LGBT*IQ diversity has the greatest impact in a company when executives, diversity management and the company’s corporate networks regularly come together. Is that also your recipe for success?

Dr. Christophe Campana: Yes, I myself regularly meet with our LGBTQ+ network and have learned a lot from these meetings, e.g. the so-called “Monday lie”, when colleagues chat with each other during the coffee break about the last weekend and some prefer to describe their life partner as “a friend”.

I could immediately emphasize the stress associated with this white lie when my employees told me that they had felt like this for very long periods of time, sometimes even years. That is why the close exchange is so crucial: You start to better understand the problems of the community and can actually start changing things more targeted.

The last question: There are turbulent times coming for employees. Considering your commitment to diversity, how would you react to the statement that starting from now, there are more important topics than LGBT*IQ diversity?

Dr. Christophe Campana: There is a difference between the urgency and the importance. The unexpected severity with which the corona pandemic has affected all areas of life resulted in existential challenges for many companies which we will have to deal with. Just because you douse a fire in an apartment doesn’t mean that your general life in the apartment becomes unimportant. This crisis overshadows many issues, which, however, do not become irrelevant – on the contrary: I am convinced that companies with an open and appreciative culture will get through the crisis better. Diversity is an essential part of corporate identity and contributes to the performance and resilience of an organization.

Dear Dr. Campana, thank you for talking to us!

As a sponsor and member of the foundation’s advisory board, Google has been associated with PROUT AT WORK since the beginning. Why did you decide to become a PROUT EMPLOYER?

Jannika Bock: Currently, it is important to demonstrate to the public that we at Google advocate equality for people in the LGTBQ+ community. This year, the CSD parades were canceled in Germany. As a result, a lot of visibility got lost. We would like to work against this: We support you! Now and always! That’s what PROUT EMPLOYER says, and that’s why it’s important to us at Google.

In order to keep setting new goals as well as keep up with diversity & inclusion, Google also relies on the possibility of self-identification, e.g. as trans *, non-binary or LGBT*IQ. Can data really depict the people behind your employees?

Philipp Justus: We want to be a company that promotes diversity and lives integrity and inclusion. We want our employees to picture the diversity of our users – this is the only way we can develop products that are actually accessible and usable for everyone. We want to create an environment for our employees in which they affiliate themselves with. This includes demonstrating the diversity of our workforce which is, for example, possible through the process of voluntary self-identification.

Covid-19 somehow surprised all of us and we now have to deal with it. In your opinion, why does diversity and especially LGBT*IQ diversity has to remain in the focus?

Philipp Justus: In this PRIDE season, digital media have been more important than ever – for the first time, on YouTube with PRIDE LIVE there was a German-wide, completely virtual PRIDE event on June 27th 2020, attended by politicians, companies(such as Google), and many activists from the scene. There has been a space created to come together – a space that, unfortunately, couldn’t be on the streets this year.

Where do you see the major challenges for LGBT*IQ in the workplace in the coming years?

Jannika Bock: In Germany we often encounter the fast assumption that everything has been achieved and that there would be no discrimination against members of the LGBTQ+ community anymore – especially not in companies that actively campaign for greater diversity. However, this does not correspond to reality. In Germany there are still many, many people who cannot be themselves at work. There are people who hide their (sexual) identity from colleagues and superiors – for fear of discrimination and who are exposed to “micro aggressions” in form of taunts and hidden jokes. That has to stop!

Dear Jannika Bock, dear Philipp Justus, thank you very much for the interview!

Mr. Stumpp, as CEO, you are a bridge between your company’s goals and your employees. What experiences regarding equal opportunities for LGBT*IQ people have you had to date in your role?

Stefan Stumpp: We are a market/social research company as well as a marketing consultancy and our mission is “Understand People – Inspire Growth”. This goal is a very fitting aspiration for our customers: we help them understand how their own customers, employees and stakeholders “tick”. To be able to achieve this effectively, however, we must understand people’s diversity and life plans and integrate them adequately into our studies and recommendations for companies. Therefore, our motto fits perfectly with the goals we have set for our staff development. Over and above our commitment to LGBT* topics, this gives us a greater understanding of how to integrate all types of diversity. This has made us better advisors for our customers.

Diversity has long been a topic in large companies. How are your staff responding to the fact that the focus is now being placed on LGBT*IQ?

Stefan Stumpp: We, too, have been aiming to increase the diversity of our team for many years. We take a holistic approach to the topic because equal opportunities are not just a question of gender, sexual orientation or background. As a knowledge-based company, it’s important to us that our employees can put their whole personalities into their work – this helps us leverage their full creative potential. Our colleagues at all our offices are responding very positively and with interest to the activities of our employee resource group “Pride@Kantar”. The group is open to all colleagues – whether they define themselves as LGBT* or not – and is active at our offices in Germany and worldwide. It is supported by our Inclusion & Diversity Committee and our staff development team. The group explains why it’s relevant to talk about LGBT* topics in the world of work, calls for debate – also about our policies and corporate stances – and, conversely, makes Kantar visible in the LGBT* world. It’s great to see that our employee groups on gender and LGBT* topics have sparked a new dialogue beyond specialist teams.

Kantar has been a PROUT EMPLOYER since 2019. What prompted you to focus on LGBT*IQ diversity yourselves?

Stefan Stumpp: To begin with, our diversity initiatives focused on balancing work and family life and therefore on equal opportunities between the sexes. We began a dialogue with all our employees on this subject and attempted to identify unconscious patterns of thinking. However, we quickly realised that diversity encompasses many more aspects. This prompted us to also start addressing quite specifically sexual orientation and gender identity as another key topic.

What do you think are the challenges and the opportunities with regard to LGBT*IQ diversity in your company in the coming years?

Stefan Stumpp: Within the company, we have created tremendous enthusiasm and optimism around the topic of diversity – and not just in Germany: after all, we are a global group with 30,000 employees. We have only just started to interconnect our employee resource groups and we had big plans for 2020 – especially for our work with the CSDs in Germany. The Covid crisis and its economic effects led not only to the cancellation of the CSDs. Many companies are first of all having to deal with the direct economic consequences of Covid-19. The challenge is definitely to prevent people’s attention from being diverted from staff development topics. A lot of commitment comes directly from our teams and we must ensure that we can maintain this motivation even in these unusual times. Precisely in such crises, diversity gives us an advantage because looking at these situations from more angles will allow us to deal with them much more creatively. Kantar understands people – how they think, feel, assess, consume or choose – like almost no other company.

How would you use your knowledge to make other companies understand the added value and your commitment to LGBT*IQ diversity?

Stefan Stumpp: Many of our customers – a large number of which are powerful brands – are faced with the question of how they can incorporate diversity into their advertising and communication and how they can become more inclusive. Some companies stick rainbow flags to the front doors of their branches/stores; others use CSDs for sponsoring or recruiting purposes: for many brands, the question of their stance – how they position themselves on issues of equality in society – has become an important subject. This includes how they deal with LGBT* topics. That’s why the inclusion of LGBT* topics in media, communication and customer touchpoints is also an area that we research and advise on, and in which we are learning not only ourselves how to improve, but can also help our customers do the same.

Mr. Stumpp, we at PROUT AT WORK are delighted to have Kantar on board. Thank you very much for talking to us!

Top Employer in Germany with an extraordinary focus on employees for six years in a row, certified as a top training provider with the BEST PLACE TO LEARN label and recognised as an employer with a focus on balancing work and family. Was the REWE Group’s step to become a PROUT EMPLOYER a logical consequence? What motivated REWE to do so?

Katja Gut: It’s important to us to accommodate the interests, wishes and ideas of all our employees, regardless of gender, nationality, ethnic or social background, religion/beliefs, disability, age or sexual orientation. For us, focusing on our employees is essential, so we’re always looking to add further programs to our portfolio that could be helpful to our employees as well as potential applicants. As a PROUT EMPLOYER, we now have taken another important step, including with regards to supporting and positioning our LGBT network di.to (di.fferent to.gether).

What are your goals for the PROUT EMPLOYER cooperation?

Katja Gut: Through our network di.to, we are already actively promoting more tolerance and acceptance in the workplace, regardless of sexual orientation. We expect the PROUT EMPLOYER cooperation to add new input in this area, help extend our network and allow us to work on innovative ideas together. We are looking forward to learning new things, exchanging views with employees from other industries and sharing experiences. It’s great to meet like-minded people who support LGBT projects with the same passion we do.

Petra, you believe that the teams of the future will be mixed and diverse and you align your strategies accordingly. How is this idea being lived at REWE Group? And how can LGBT*IQ talents benefit from this philosophy?

Dr. Petra Meyer-Ochel: At REWE Group, we have mixed teams in our supermarkets as well as in our central locations – professionally, individually and with regards to the above-mentioned diversity dimensions. We are best able to solve a task when we view it from multiple perspectives. And you get these multiple perspectives when you make sure your teams are diversified. To start with, this often means more effort because all the different opinions need to be heard and exchanged. Communication is more complex as well, for example when a colleague from Retail sees things differently from someone who works in administration. But it always pays off in the end. Mixed teams frequently debate and discuss ideas that wouldn’t even have come up in a more homogeneous team. I am firmly convinced that diverse teams are more creative and make better decisions in the long term.
LGBT*IQ talents can benefit just like anyone else: openness for other people’s ideas, mutual respect and results that have been achieved together strengthen both the individual and the entire team.

Frank, in REWE’s advocacy for equal opportunities for LGBT*IQ, network and executive level work closely together, with numerous supporters in between. Is that the secret recipe for LGBT*IQ diversity within the company?

Frank Bartels: Yes, absolutely. Without all those supporters all the way up to the executive level, a network like di.to. wouldn’t have any clout whatsoever. Shortly after the network was founded in 2013, our current CEO and then-director Lionel Souque became our patron. That gave our network tremendous momentum and opened every door within the REWE Group. However, it should also be noted that acceptance within our company was – and still is – huge from the beginning and we we’ve always been able to approach various contact persons within REWE Group with our concerns at any time. It’s important to us to be able to work as transparently as possible and keep drawing attention to our campaigns and events wherever we can: for example, involving all our colleagues at REWE Group in our participation at the 2019 Cologne CSD. We don’t want to be on the sidelines, but we don’t want to be perceived as an elitist group either. So the 2019 CSD motto “Many.Together.Strong.” unwittingly became a maxim for working together at REWE Group.

From your perspectives, what advice would you give companies who are at the very beginning of their work for LGBT*IQ diversity?

Frank Bartels: As discussed, backing from an executive or from other straight allies is essential as far as LGBT networks are concerned. It gives you support, strength and self-confidence, in particular while the network is still in its infancy. Outwardly, LGBT/diversity should be an issue close to your heart, i.e. an issue that you’re comfortable promoting throughout the entire year rather than pinkwashing during Pride season. The fact that we display rainbow stickers at the entrances to our REWE and PENNY supermarkets, our toom hardware stores and our DER travel agencies positions us very credibly in this regard.

Thank you very much for the Interview!

You refer to yourself as “divers” (non-binary). What experiences have you had at Bosch with this identity?

Nils_Séline “Nica” Schächtele: DIVERSITY has been an important topic at Bosch for some years now. I have always liked the term “divers” very much because I have intersex as well as transgender-androgynous and bigender characteristics, and “divers” covers all of them. The change in the law creating the third gender option in Germany has really pushed things forward simultaneously for Bosch and for me. This year, we started to take many diverse steps together and to have lively discussions – a win-win situation for all of us. Sometimes, I jokingly refer to myself as “Bosch’s token non-binary person”. The feedback from my colleagues at the office was cautiously positive, and I got a lot of respect for being open about my gender. There was also a bit of confusion, in particular due to my two additional first names Séline and Nica. If I brought up this subject myself, the question I heard most frequently was: “Can I still call you Nils?” – which I’m OK with.

What does it mean to you to be an intersex person in our society?

Nils_Séline “Nica” Schächtele: It means belonging to a tabooed minority that is largely invisible. Sometimes I feel like we’re aliens from a Science Fiction movie: “So people like that actually exist?” “Yes, they do!!” Noticing that someone has both typically female and typically male characteristics, or finding out more details about this, or even realising that someone doesn’t fit into any traditional category, makes many people uneasy. It doesn’t match the binary view of the world that is instilled in us. It takes a lot of patience and stamina to overcome this hurdle.

When did you come out in your workplace? And what challenges did this pose at your company and with your colleagues?

Nils_Séline “Nica” Schächtele: I began to come out at Bosch during a telephone call with Olaf Schreiber – the spokesperson for the company’s LGBTIQ network RBg – and then in a telephone call about the “third gender option” with Anja Hormann from the central Bosch Diversity Team. After that, I gradually informed my direct colleagues at the office, my carpool group, my supervisor and the local HR department. A wonderful video made by colleagues for colleagues on IDAHOBIT inspired me to have my first name changed to Nils_Séline in the internal company address book. It is written with the so-called “Gender_Gap” to visualise the gender continuum between male and female. I dedicated my first blog entry in the internal network to this subject and sometimes I was moved to tears by the approval I received from all over the world. On Diversity Day, our office organised a Diversity Business Lunch which I attended and where I was able to talk about non-binary gender aspects with those present. Generally, I was pleasantly surprised at how much good will and appreciation were shown to me at all levels. However, the biggest challenge is, and continues to be, plucking up the courage to speak openly to others. Not to mention the IT side, where the only options you have in many areas are male and female.

What advice would you give to intersex people planning to come out?

Nils_Séline “Nica” Schächtele: Take it slowly – small steps are best, so give yourself time. Coming out as an intersex person requires a great deal of care and courage. Things can quickly take a wrong turn. I recommend beginning with people who are not quite so close to you. After a bit of practice, you’ll find it easier to talk to your family and close friends. And get in touch with LGBTIQ allies – they’re open-minded and make very good listeners. Talking to allies will make you feel better and boost your self-confidence.

What are your hopes with regard to the visibility of intersex per­sons in particular and the LGBTIQ Community in general at your company?

Nils_Séline “Nica” Schächtele: Let’s be as courageous as possible. Intersexuality is still a big taboo topic. In many places, we as a society have yet to take a clear stand against hastily begun hormonal treatment or surgery which is not medically necessary. The few who are open about their identity are inundated with letters and requests from all sides. But there are other important topics, too. That’s why I’d like to see many people – in particular many allies – spread the message that the human body doesn’t just develop into a man or a woman and that gender actually covers a broad spectrum. I’d like this to be matched by a more relaxed approach – as if you’re talking about the weather or what you’re going to cook for dinner. I experienced this on Stuttgart’s commuter trains recently and it worked really well. As regards our LGBTIQ Community at Bosch, I hope that many people will join us in the years to come, the proportion of allies will grow steadily, and gender diversity will gain an even higher profile. This applies to intersex, transgender and queer identities topics of any kind.

Ms Halfas, METRO AG is clearly a very active PROUT EMPLOYER. In what specific ways does METRO champion more equal opportunities for LGBT*IQ people?

Laura Halfas: METRO was one of the first wholesalers to sign the UN Free and Equal Standards of Conduct for Business, which ensure that all employees are “free and equal”. We also have METRO Pride, a very strong internal network. This year, the Diversity & Inclusion Days took place for the first time at our campus in Dusseldorf to spark our employees’ interest in the topic of diversity. And METRO was again represented at Sticks & Stones in 2019, the largest LGBT+ careers fair in Europe.

Which initiatives are you personally particularly proud of?

Laura Halfas: We at METRO initiated a position paper on the issue of blood donation because the guidelines are discriminatory. For example, homosexual men are generally assumed to engage in risky behaviour irrespective of their actual sexual behaviour and their life situation. It would be great if, together with PROUT AT WORK, we could achieve a position paper that was adopted by German businesses. That’s why I would again like to take the opportunity to invite businesses to participate in this initiative.

As Head of Corporate Responsibility, it is your duty to ensure that METRO AG fulfils its corporate responsibility for the environment and society. In your view, what responsibility do businesses have when it comes to equal opportunities for LGBTIQ people?

Laura Halfas: We are a people business and we work with people throughout our entire value chain. As a global company with more than 150,000 employees in 36 countries, it’s our duty to ensure that all people are treated equally and not discriminated against – be they METRO employees, service partners, suppliers or customers.

In what specific areas are you hoping for support from PROUT AT WORK?

Laura Halfas: I and a lot of my colleagues appreciate the networking and dialogue with PROUT AT WORK. The foundation has considerable experience and know-how. For example, it constantly provides us with new impetus to drive forward cultural change within METRO and make our jobs even more open and less susceptible to discrimination. What’s more, our activities are becoming visible outside the company. And as I said, our motto when it comes to the position paper on blood donation is: together we can do it!

You immediately agreed to an interview with us – thank you again! To what extent are equal opportunities for LGBTIQ people an issue that is close to your heart?

Laura Halfas: Working for equal rights is what drives me. At first, I only focused on gender equality, but then I realised that there are many areas in which there is no equality. My goal is that in ten years we no longer have to talk about diversity and inclusion because both of these things have simply become part of life – in all areas of society. However, there are still many areas in which LGBT+ issues need to be addressed. People are still being discriminated against. I want to change this. Everyone should have the opportunity to be who they are.

Ms Halfas, many thanks for talking to us!

You’re a very young network – only founded in 2019. Tell us how your initial idea led to the network being formed and how the first activities came about.

Ingo Bertram: The Otto Group has long been a supporter of diversity – explicitly including LGBTIQ. A good example of this is our cooperation with Hamburg Pride, which started in 2017. Nevertheless, the Group had no official structure that specifically allowed LGBTIQ people to join together and that promoted queer topics and coordinated activities. Nor was there a central voice representing the interests of our queer colleagues. This is precisely why in May 2019 we established MORE*, a queer network in the Otto Group. At the end of July, to coincide with Hamburg Pride Week, we officially launched the network – and the first thing we did was turn the OTTO campus into a sea of rainbows, including a rainbow zebra crossing and a huge rainbow cake, through a range of activities. Incidentally, the zebra crossing is now a permanent feature on our campus, as is the rainbow flag in front of our main entrance. The cake, however, was gone within two hours!

Which challenges did you face? Where did you get support from?

Ingo Bertram: Right from the time we established the network, we received a delightful amount of encouragement and support, not only from direct colleagues, but explicitly also from the highest management levels. I sometimes had the impression that many people were merely waiting for a queer network to finally be launched. Ultimately, our biggest challenge was therefore not only to officially establish the network within a few weeks, but also to organise a launch that met our own high standards – and to do all this without neglecting our main jobs. I was blown away by the fact that we had already got more than 150 MORE* supporters within 48 hours of the official launch on 29 July.

With Gesa Heinrichs as Executive Sponsor, you have an enormously committed person on board. To what extent does this help you in your work?

Ingo Bertram: Whether MORE* will be a lasting success in the Otto Group depends primarily on how deeply we can anchor our vision in the group and in the mindset of our staff. A prerequisite for this is that we can motivate as many colleagues as possible to help shape the work of our network proactively and drive forward ideas. Of course, it’s helpful for MORE* to also have committed members and supporters at higher management levels, such as Gesa Heinrichs or our patron Katy Roewer, the member of OTTO’s management board with responsibility for Service & HR. This gives us better access to top management and can make coordination easier. What is ultimately decisive, though, is that our ideas, visions and wishes take hold within the company, irrespective of any hierarchies. And for this goal we need every single person.

Why is supporting LGBT*IQ people a matter that is close to your heart?

Ingo Bertram: I’d like to answer this question both from a personal view and from the perspective of society as a whole. Speaking personally, the answer is obvious because – just like many other initiators and supporters of MORE* – I am queer myself and naturally I want to work in a company that treats its employees equally without reservation, regardless of gender, religion, skin colour or sexual identity. However, this always works best when there are people in a company who are committed to diversity and set a good example. This is precisely what we want to do with MORE*.

On the other hand, what’s at least as important to me is the appeal such a commitment can have beyond one’s own job. In Germany and in many other countries, we are experiencing a partial rollback of society. Right-wing populist ideas are gaining influence, mostly at the expense of minorities, and these include not only refugees, Muslims or Jews, but also queer people. I can’t and won’t stand by and watch this happen, either in my personal life or at work, and this is how many others here feel, too. I am convinced that in this discourse, companies have a growing social responsibility and must actively take a stand in favour of diversity. That’s why for me, MORE* is a very clear signal to the outside world – a signal that shows that in the Otto Group we will not surrender to this rollback and will continue to be a liberal-minded, tolerant corporate group of many colours.

What are the next steps, and what are your wishes and goals for the network?

Ingo Bertram: Globally, more than 50,000 people work for the Otto Group. The biggest challenge and thus the most important goal for us will be to reach as many of these people as possible. This sounds trivial at first, but it isn’t. In the coming months, we will therefore begin by redoubling our efforts to build up an internal network between our more than 120 group companies, both digitally and using regular dialogue formats. At the same time, we want to promote awareness of queer topics internally in various areas, whether it’s in marketing and purchasing, in our online shop teams or in the recruiting process. I think we’re already on the right track.

Many thanks for talking to us, Ingo!

You identify as a bisexual woman – what does that mean to you?

Katharina Reimann: Perhaps I wouldn’t describe myself as bisexual so much as maybe even pansexual? That’s because to me, sexual attraction is person-specific, not gender-specific. I’ve known this from a very early age, and have communicated it without feeling any shame.

Tell us about how you came out.

Katharina Reimann: It feels like I come out on a recurring basis, because many people think, “Oh, she’s just going through a lesbian or heterosexual or whatever phase”, just because they happen to run into me in the company of a person they think of as male or female. That’s why I have to keep explaining my sexual orientation. Sometimes I think that for the people I see on a regular basis to “believe” my sexual orientation, I’d have to have a polyamorous relationship with at least two trans* people, a cis woman and a heterosexual cis man.

What kind of questions and clichés with regard to bisexual people come your way in everyday life?

Katharina Reimann: What I frequently encounter in everyday life is the cliché of infidelity. Since I supposedly have more options theoretically (another cliché I hate), many people think I’m fickle and more likely to cheat. What I also get a lot is people saying I’m only with women because it turns men on… “Really?!”, I think to myself. That’s just nonsense. Sadly, I don’t get a lot of questions. I’d rather be asked questions than repeatedly have to defend myself against prejudices.

So far, what actual experiences have you had after coming out as a bisexual woman in the workplace?

Katharina Reimann: I’ve worked for a living in many different environments, and my experience has been that in academia and in the arts, sexual orientation has little to no relevance. But in my side job in the restaurant industry I’ve never come out, because I’ve experienced and seen a lot of sexual intrusiveness in that sector, and never felt safe.

What’s your advice to people who are about to come out (in the workplace)?

Katharina Reimann: Since I’ve only ever come out in situations in which I felt comfortable and safe and that I was being taken seriously, even though I’m generally a very open person, I would say: create safe spaces for yourselves, get involved in a network, for example. Check out what anti-discrimination structures there are in your company. How much about your private life do you reveal to your colleagues? What are your needs? Do you need professional support, for example? Do you perhaps want to work to actively change the social structure of your workplace? Knowing the answers to these questions often helps you to make good decisions for yourself.

In your opinion, what can and should companies do to raise the visibility of LGBTIQ topics in the workplace?

Katharina Reimann: Generally speaking, companies should pay attention to social interaction. Offer continuing education courses that strengthen the community. Refuse to allow any kind of discrimination. Harassment or discrimination or malicious gossip against colleagues should be grounds for termination, and that should be openly communicated. Equal opportunities officers should be the rule and should have far-reaching veto rights. Generally, sexualised violence in the workplace should also be addressed and, hopefully, eliminated some day. That’s my hope for an ideal world…

Many thanks for talking to us, Katharina.

Ms Friese, Commerzbank marked the 7th German Diversity Day in late May with numerous activities nationwide. The market region East has been particularly active in 2019 – why is that?

Jenny Friese: Because diversity is just unbelievably important to me! For four years, I have been a member of the Global Diversity Council for the Private and Corporate Clients segment (see info box) and in this capacity I would like to be a role model and offer guidance, especially on the topic of “women in management”. In particular during challenging times, it is important to understand, accept and support people, with all their differences and strengths. On Diversity Day, we invited colleagues and clients to an evening event with a very interesting panel for a stimulating discussion on the topic of “Why is a commitment to LGBT issues a success factor for companies?” The feedback showed that this first step of our “Journey to Berlin” attracted people’s attention.

You mention the “Journey to Berlin”. What is that?

Jenny Friese: Over the course of my career, it has become clear that heterogeneous teams are usually the more successful ones. It was therefore important to me to further develop this approach. However, having diversity “decreed” as part of the human resources strategy is not enough – I make the case for managers at Commerzbank taking an interest in the issue, being tolerant and open and showing this in their everyday work. This is the only way that everyone at our bank can feel comfortable and develop themselves fully. In addition, employee networks help to support such a corporate culture and to offer new perspectives through people sharing their own experiences. When the spokesman for our employee network Arco (see info box), Holger Reuschling, asked me late last year whether I would be willing to take on the role of patron championing the issue of LGBT even more strongly within senior management, my interest was quickly sparked. From the initial discussions, joint ideas were developed, which were implemented conceptually this year in the “Journey to Berlin”. The term “journey” has a symbolic meaning. We are setting off with different events in order to make the issue visible and ensure an environment that is free of discrimination.

At the events held to date, you emphasised several times that living diversity is “close to your heart”. How do you show your commitment personally?

Jenny Friese: For me, “living diversity” is a personal conviction. It enables us to perform better and makes us more creative and at the same time more human. All of this is good for our personal and professional development. As managers, we can set an example here, too, and make a difference. For that reason, I personally attend many events, raise awareness of the issue and seek dialogue with others. In my current role, I have the opportunity to lend even more weight to my messages and ensure even greater attention is paid to the topic of diversity. Prejudices are not entirely unfamiliar to me either. Therefore, I feel obliged to make the case for openness and tolerance. It has to become normal for heterosexual and homosexual people to be able to interact in a relaxed way with one another – in both directions.

What advantages does such a culture of openness bring to Commerzbank and its clients?

Jenny Friese: As a company we in fact benefit very much from this. Studies show that employees’ performance is significantly higher if they are in a working environment that is free of prejudices. When searching for the best talent, we present ourselves as an open, modern and tolerant company. It has been proven that young LGBT job seekers pay very close attention to these values when choosing an employer. In addition, teams that maintain a culture of openness tend to be willing to tread new paths and to advance innovations. Our clients are making similar observations. Purchasing decisions are often influenced by how a company is perceived. When it comes to having a welcoming culture, we know from experience that LGBT people as well as their family and friends are particularly sensitive. At the same time, the group is considered particularly lucrative in terms of its purchasing power.

Sounds encouraging. On the other hand, studies also show that, compared to other countries, young employees in Germany in particular are less likely to take the risk of coming out. They are afraid it will disadvantage them in their careers. This is the case despite all the efforts made to promote diversity. What are we still doing wrong here?

Jenny Friese: Traditional corporate structures often cannot be changed overnight. And it is important in this process to include all levels of management, to raise their awareness, educate them and break down inhibitions. The colouring of our logo during the Christopher Street Day season in 2018 and the lively discussion of this that took place on Comnet showed that, despite our culture of openness, there are still a lot of reservations and unease. The activities are often aimed solely at the LGBT target group. However, shared events and measures such as the “Journey to Berlin” help to overcome these difficulties. To do this, we also need people who have the courage to go public and thus act as role models for other colleagues.

Is one of the reasons for this perhaps that sexual orientation is seen as a private matter?

Jenny Friese: LGBT is not a private attitude, but rather a sexual orientation that a person does not choose. This mistake very often leads people in the wrong direction. It is precisely for this reason that I can only recommend that everyone comes to grips with this issue. A homosexual person who won’t come out for fear that it will damage their career will never introduce the person they love to their colleagues and will always have to lie during conversations about the weekend or holidays. It’s not about discussing sexual preferences. But while male heterosexual colleagues can have a picture of their wife on their desk and can bring her to evening events or shared team activities, this normality is denied to a homosexual colleague who is not out. However, being able to openly talk about one’s private life is part and parcel of a human and positive environment. Arco’s experiences have made it clear to me once again that, in our company, too, there are still people who are not living openly and who do not disclose their sexual orientation to colleagues and, above all, to their supervisors. Despite the culture of openness, there are still no high-level managers who, through their visibility, can resolve the supposed contradiction between being out and having a successful career.

And how do you see the future? Where will we be on the 10th Diversity Day in three years’ time?

Jenny Friese: My wish is that by then we can successfully make the case for diversity. In addition, it would be fantastic if more and more people – regardless of their sexual orientation – take an interest in one another and interact with each other in an open, tolerant manner at every level and in every direction.